Why You Can't Heal Alone: Relational Leadership, the Adaptive Child, and the Path to We-Consciousness with Mike Elliott

What if the reason you're stuck isn't a you problem but a we problem? In this episode, Jojo sits down with relational leadership mentor and initiation guide Mike Elliott to unpack why so many of us are walking around disconnected in adult bodies still run by an adaptive child. Mike breaks down the science of secure attachment, what it actually means to function from your wise adult brain, and why healing in isolation might be the very thing keeping you from the life and love you want. They get into the three phases of relational consciousness, the reparenting framework Mike uses with his clients, and why vulnerability is not your weakness but your greatest power. This one will rewire the way you think about relationships, growth, and what it means to actually show up for your own life.

Connect with Mike: 

Website: www.itsmikeelliott.com 

Sacred We Community: www.sacredrelating.com

Instagram: www.instagram.com/mikeelliott.relating 

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Transcript

speaker-0 (00:07.476)
Welcome to the Inside Out podcast. I'm your host JoJo and this is where we will navigate the mess together. That is mental, emotional, and spiritual. Let's get messy.

speaker-0 (00:28.088)
Okay, so today my guest is Mike Elliott. He is a relational leadership mentor and initiation guide. He works with people who want to have it all and actually show up for it. So a little bit about Mike. He has been adopted twice, has walked through divorce and rebuilt from the inside out. He's also the co-host of the Sacred We podcast alongside Courtney Wren, who is his wife, and his work has been featured in Ask Men.

the new human and more. So Mike, welcome to Inside Out.

speaker-1 (01:01.198)
Jojo, so happy to be here looking forward to our conversation today.

speaker-0 (01:05.45)
Me too, me too. Okay, so just want to start here. We are biologically wired to bond. Like, that's just the science, right? And I want to talk about this because I think so many people are walking around completely disconnected. So I wanted your take on what's actually going on.

speaker-1 (01:28.65)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, so this piece that you're talking about of biologically being wired for connection, this is, we can't get away from this truth. And so many people are walking around, like you said, disconnected. And the way that this looks is anxious, depressed, feeling lonely.

feeling lots of ruminating thoughts that are self-deprecating of, I'm broken, what's wrong with me? And or the other way to express this is lots of judgment and projection about how everyone else is the problem. That is the very essence of disconnection. Because when we're feeling bonded and connected, we can see that everything happening in our life is happening for us. That's what tells us we're connected. And if we're not,

Well, our aim is to find the connection. And to help this really make sense to understand for all you listening, this piece of needing to be biologically connected is you come from your mother. Every one of us comes from within our mother. You couldn't be more connected. You are merged. And when we come out of the womb of our mother,

It's supposed to be a really slow differentiation process. It's not supposed to happen quickly. It's supposed to happen slowly. And we need 30 % attunement for us to grow up and mature in a good way. And this has been studied and proven. It just takes 30 % of really being met.

And then there's room for 70 % of screw-ups and misses. And if we get that 30%, we will have this inner experience of belonging that I'm enough. It'll be easy to set boundaries. It'll be really simple to attract a partner that feels really aligned and treats you with love and respect. It'll be very easy to follow your inspiration and bring your God-given gifts to the world.

speaker-1 (03:46.156)
That's the sign that we developed with Secure Attachment. We'll be able to have that experience, which most people are looking for that experience. It's probably why you're tuning into this podcast is you are seeing that maybe sometimes life is feeling messy and you're looking to find more clarity and simplicity in that mess. And what I have found over the years is almost always

When I have mess going on, when I'm feeling ungrounded, something's a struggle. It's not a me problem. It's always a we problem. Where am I not connected to my higher power, to my partner, to myself? If I can go towards the ingredients that brings me the sense of connection, everything else is better. Everything starts to move into more flow and ease. It's all in the connection.

speaker-0 (04:42.382)
Do you think that people's way of connecting is more general or do you think it's specific?

speaker-1 (04:50.966)
I believe every single person has a very unique makeup and the ingredients that each person needs is unique. So what I need to feel connection might be different than you or any of you listening. Some of the things that I know about myself is, what really helps me feel connected to myself is being out in nature, laughing. I love humor. I love one-to-one connection is so fun for me.

just to drop into a deep intimate moment and jam on a topic like this as an example. This is why I do vodkas. I love it. It helps me feel connected to myself. And there's all these ways that works for me. And I think everyone has a different version. This is why we can't just go grab someone's template that worked for them to create some sort of success. For men listening, you know, maybe in this example of looking at building a body, Arnold Schwarzenegger, he lays out what he did

But yet no one gets the same result if you just follow what he does because they're not Arnie. And if we want to, you get to insert whatever inspiration for yourself there is we can't just copy whatever someone else is doing because we have different energies. We have a different orientation to life, our natural state, our nature state.

is unique and it's our job to figure out what that nature is because if we tend it and we nurture it, things feel really good.

speaker-0 (06:23.416)
So we're wired to be in connection, yet most of us are living these parallel lives and how we might have a partner or we're interconnected with the people around us, yet there is this separation because there's not this deeper bond or we're lacking that. Why is that such an epidemic right now of disconnection when yet we're surrounded and more.

connected, in social media, in the ways that we just are naturally in the world, why is it actually almost a paradox in the opposite?

speaker-1 (07:02.894)
You're asking the most important question because clarity is power. And the more clear we get on this piece, the more power we have, the more choice we have. 90 % of humanity is walking around in the world as an adaptive child. So what this means is they're in this string of coping strategies in an adult body that are actually a little kid. When we actually think of

the functionality of someone's brain when they're out in adult life. If we actually look at what the behaviors are, if we look at how they communicate, if we look at how they relate, we can almost always see how old they're actually, like the age of what they're actually functioning at. 90 % of humanity is functioning from an adaptive child state.

It's a lower level of functioning, which is why it's so stressful. Being in adult life when things are going really fast and there's lots of complexities and things to do. If we don't mature in our nervous system and our attachment system, we will just drown in overwhelm and stress. Adaptive child, for any of you that are wondering like, does that even mean? While we're growing up, if we get dropped too much of the time emotionally,

spiritually, mentally.

speaker-1 (08:33.066)
If we get dropped too many times, our system will stay stuck in that stage of development. It freezes in time. It doesn't mature because the ingredients aren't there. we don't have the right...

speaker-0 (08:50.456)
Sorry to cut you off. you say dropped, can you give me more of an example? Cause you're not being like the child was dropped. You're speaking about an actual, like the needs of that child weren't met. I correct?

speaker-1 (09:04.578)
Yeah, well, it could be a physical drop and that creates impact. And then there's the other drop. And so the drop that I'm talking about is, and I'm going to use an infant as an example, because this is, I think everyone can feel this wisdom inside. When an infant is first born, they are the one of the most vulnerable, a human just born is one the most vulnerable beings that exists.

Most animals hop out of the womb and they're like ready to go. Like within an hour they can use their feet, they can run, they can go get food. Babies can't do that. Like if they're really in there, they'll maybe do the, what's called the crawl and they'll crawl up their mama's belly and they'll latch onto their breasts themselves. Every baby actually has that wiring inside to do that.

but we're so disconnected from nature that mamas don't even know to give the baby that experience for them to build that part of the development. That's why mamas' nipples generally get darker is so that they can see where to go. That's why there's a line for lot of mamas up the belly and darker nipples is there's a biological part of development that babies actually need to have that experience to crawl and latch on, follow their senses, follow their, and then that

creates tone, creates capacity. And so let's say that infant a couple of weeks in is crying and spitting up and hungry. If mama doesn't attune to that baby's in distress because baby's hungry and misses that too many times, the nervous system of that baby will start to shut down. It'll stop.

crying in the same way, it'll stop going into such a big freak out, it'll start to freeze. It'll start to shut down because it's got the message what it's actually biologically needing isn't available. Another way that maybe makes more sense in today's culture is there's a lot of mamas who are doing their best, but it's so disconnected in our culture from how things used to be, which is if we go in indigenous cultures that are really healthy and vital,

speaker-0 (10:59.31)
Mmm.

speaker-1 (11:23.406)
There's something that you will see that happens. Mamas are never alone. Babies are never alone. It's a village that raise it. Mamas have help from the aunts, from the grandmas, from the ones that aren't in it. The ones that didn't just give birth and their whole hormone structure is changing and the feelings and postpartum and just all the things that happened in that place, their body and organs reorganizing. Like there's so much happening, but in our culture, most mamas are just

kind of in it with just if they're lucky, just their partner. And so what that leads to is mama's not going to be very attuned to baby or less available to attune to baby because she's in her own distress. And so when I talk about drop in our culture, the drop is usually, God, mama's just trying to get her basic needs met. She's irritable. She's frustrated of how much load there is mentally, emotionally in this baby.

my God. then maybe she gets a bit frustrated. So baby has an appropriate need for being a hundred percent dependent, but mama's frustrated or hands the baby off to somebody who's maybe not attuned. And then that scares the baby or, you know, maybe taking the baby out into the world. That's too busy for what would actually be helpful for that baby. And then, so now there's all this stimulation and now they're freezing and shutting down, but mama can't notice that they're freezing and shutting down.

and all these examples and then that information stays stuck. The body starts to slow down in its development and then, then it just starts to spill out into all these behavioral things later on.

speaker-0 (13:05.706)
We can't just point at our partner and be like, adaptive child functioning brain right now. We have to, you like there's a dance that goes with that. But in order to even spot that or to be aware of it, what does that even look like in the dynamics at play in our adult lives? Like you talk about the adaptive child and then the wise adult. So what is the bridge between

getting from as an adult between the adaptive child and the wise adult.

speaker-1 (13:41.686)
Yeah, maybe first I'll orient the listeners. So wise adult that you're talking about here, Jojo, is the wise adult part of us is when we look at how our brain functions, wise adult is when our prefrontal cortex is online and firing really well and then communicating to the other hemispheres of the brain so that it's all working in harmony. Solid teamwork in there.

There's the right and left hemisphere, they're really getting along, they're in the sandbox, they like what's happening in there, and there's a lot of coherence back and forth. It's just they're playing well, not a lot of conflict. And so when the whole brain is functioning with harmony, what this creates as a symptom is inspiration, relaxation, creativity, desire to do hard things, having

the ability to hold the bigger perspective. so people who are in wise adult, the prime example is if we look at the archetypes in movies of the hero, a hero is in the wise adult brain. There's chaos happening and everyone's freaking out. And what they're bringing is their wise adult brain saying, well, let's do something about this.

speaker-0 (14:59.406)
That's such a good example.

speaker-1 (15:02.306)
something's happening right now, I'm going to bring the solution in my gifts and my attunement to what's needed to bring this back into coherence. That's wise adult. Wise adult is always taking in the personal experience of what's happening for me. Am I aware of what's going on for my breath? Can I feel my body? Am I open and relaxed or am I holding tension and in some sort of fight or flight? If we have

presence with our own lived experience, guess what we then have? The overflow of presence to offer another person. Women especially. One of the biggest awarenesses that women have and pain points is, want more presence for my man. What they're asking for is, I want a man who's so connected to himself, accountable and clear in the things that keeps him well.

And he's bringing that version of himself to me so that I can feel the banks of his presence and support and care of himself so that I can be in more of that feminine essence, which is the river. I want to wash around and be the part of me that's forever changed and the light and expanding into my experience. Women are looking for a man that can hold that and not lose himself, not get defensive, not deflect, see the experience of

feeling and emotion and expression as something to pick apart with fact and logic, which is so jarring and infuriating, all you women. And so the wise adult part is the one that can build out presence. Another way of looking at this for all of you that know Shiva. Shiva is this just this mountain energy that's taking it all in.

If we can take it all in, we now have the ability to respond.

speaker-1 (17:00.514)
versus react. If we're in reactivity, we're in the adaptive child always.

speaker-0 (17:07.896)
Do you think that people are aware when they're in the adaptive child? And if they're not, how would I if I'm in the adaptive child, which I am sometimes, for sure. I feel like it depends on the situation. But I can definitely go into the child, adaptive child functioning ways. And I don't even realize it. It takes someone from the outside to be like, you're spiraling, you're this, you're whatever.

for me to kind of catch it. And I might know, but it's still hard to dig myself out. So what are the tools and what are the ways to really, A, catch it and then B, move through it into the, my gosh, into the wise adult.

speaker-1 (17:58.434)
This is the best question to ask because that's the tricky thing is we can't pull ourselves out of the adaptive child if we don't even know that we're in it. Because that's the whole thing that created the adaptive child is it's a coping strategy that is a little kid wearing adult clothes and they're trying to perform as an adult. And there's a lot of propping up and pretending and masks. Like when we look in society, adaptive child is

The lack of vulnerability, it's the lack of transparency of what's actually going on in your human experience. And so this is, know, coping strategies with substance abuse and pornography and, you know, not telling the full truth and hiding and cheating. That's all adaptive child. It's just these coping strategies that are little kids that learn some way to feel better than the distress that was actually happening when it first got created. To feel better, it's self-soothing from a very limited brain.

Now as adults, we often know that there are things that are more healthy and vital to be doing than the same old patterns we're doing. So to answer your question, first of all, you got to tune in as you're doing right now to JoJo's podcast and listen to conversations like this. Because clarity is power and awareness is power. So the more we can build out our awareness, what's happening for all of you listening.

is we're actually drawing on the prefrontal cortex right now. Because if any part of you is curious, you are feeding neural networks into your adult brain right now. If you're over there super triggered and you're like, you're out to lunch and you're in a defense strategy, well, you're in some survival part and an adaptive child part. So you're not going to be expanding your awareness. You're just going to play out the same old adaptive child thing. But if you're open and curious, you're forming new perspective.

that will create new behaviors. And so to oversimplify, we first need to understand what are the ingredients of an adaptive child. If we know that, we can start to, within ourselves, discern and differentiate whether we're in an adaptive child part or we're in a wise adult part.

speaker-0 (20:19.086)
Mmm.

speaker-1 (20:19.67)
So the ingredients of an adaptive child are you, me, consciousness. This is in partnership where it's like, well, if you didn't do this, I wouldn't have to do that. And it's just you, me. It's this push, pull back and forth, you know, trying to place blame and criticism on something outside of self. Adapted child is very right or wrong, black or white. It's just it.

It's just either you're right or I'm right. And when I'm right, you're wrong. It's just black and white. This is how it is. And there's no other curiosity or perspective. You know, it's like one of the most frustrating things. Think about this. Think of having a conversation with somebody and you're trying to just express yourself in your perspective, but they just keep coming back with objections. Well, that's not true. That's not how it is. Think of how that feels in the body. It sucks.

Everyone, I think, can think of a moment of like that. That is the feeling of relating with an adaptive child. It doesn't create a warmth. It doesn't create an invitation.

creates a contraction, creates a fight, a conflict. The nervous system, what we start to do is pull out our daggers. We start to use a lot of you statements. Well, you're this and you're, well, you're triggered. Well, no, you're triggered. It's like, don't think of those conversations. So it's just, everyone take a breath and breathe into that because that you can work with. It's simple. Black and white, right or wrong, you, me, consciousness.

speaker-0 (22:03.79)
Hmm.

speaker-1 (22:06.322)
Once we know that, now we can start to empower ourselves and take radical self-responsibility of, shit, I show up as my adaptive child actually more than I want to admit. And it's our job to learn how to grow those parts of ourselves up. The wise adult is the only thing that's going to help grow that part up. And

This is the tricky thing. You can't just do it with your intellect. You can't just read the books and listening to podcasts. You will be screwed if you think that that is going to work on its own. We are relational beings. All of those traumas that happened that created the adaptive child happened relationally. The healing and the repair has to happen relationally. You can't skip that part.

That's what makes us human. That's what makes us the species that we are. We need enough of relational ingredients that were the things we didn't get that created the strategy. We still need them now as an adult. We need to mobilize towards somebody that has those ingredients so that we can have the felt sense of what was missing for those younger parts. And when we get them, guess what happens?

The healthy healer that we all have inside of us, which is our nervous system, our attachment system, it just turns back on. Even if the trauma happened day one, which is that was my big trauma, day one, doesn't matter how far back the system froze or shut down or... It will turn back on if there's attunement to the trauma that's presently expressing.

If somebody's in a triggered state and somebody is so present in their own experience that they can see and feel there's a younger part online and they can offer over qualities, not to care take, but to be in the care of that person's nervous system and experience and guide them back into safety with attunement, giving them that part that was missing.

speaker-1 (24:25.71)
Their body unfurls, their nervous system will release what it's been holding the whole time in the freeze or the shutdown. There will be tears and grief or maybe anger and push away and the body will mobilize as it's designed to do. And if you think that's not possible, let's just look at this on another level. If you cut yourself, what happens? It heals. You break your arm, what happens? It heals.

There is a mechanism inside of us that is always trying to bring in more health and vitality and strength, but our patterns are the things that prevent that from happening. Nothing is broken or wrong with anyone. Most people are walking around thinking that something is wrong, but it's they've just gotten disconnected and the mechanism that tells them to go back and reconnect is no longer firing.

Once we learn how to turn that back on and move towards people that we resonate with, that feel safe, that we're inspired by, that give you the warm fuzzies, turn towards those people and take in all their content, learn what they're saying, get closer and closer and trust that health in your body that feels safe with someone and find that person and go towards them because that's often the gateway to help grow up that adaptive child.

because then you get to receive these ingredients that we're missing and feel them. And then the wise-eyed adult part can happen even more, which is when you notice those things happen. This is an example of what this can look like in the day-to-day. When I have a younger part come online, because I've received it enough times from the outside, I can be in the shower and I can follow this framework and this method that I use, which is relational authority.

First one is vulnerability, second is acknowledgement, and the third is reassurance, is I'll feel my own vulnerability. I'm like, whoa, little Mike is alive right now. Man, I got work to do. And the most important thing right now is me to scoop this kid up because what happened back then is he didn't get scooped up. So my wise adult recognizes younger part. How am I noticing it? Shit, I got panic and terror in my chest.

speaker-1 (26:48.12)
God, I'm overthinking a little bit. Okay, acknowledge that that's true. And so what I do is I go, Hey little buddy, I'm so sorry that in the past times like this were really scary for you. Closeness was scary. A new task that you haven't done before was overwhelming. I'm so sorry in the past, you didn't get the help that you needed. And I can really feel you remembering that.

And then I'll go to the second pillar, which is acknowledgement. I'm here. can see you, man. And I'm not going anywhere. I'm never going anywhere. I am not going to put you down. I feel you. You matter. And that's the third piece is the reassurance. You matter. I'm here. Now I'm an adult and we're going to do this thing, but I've got you.

And so what that wires is me scooping and collecting up that part of myself, but bringing the adult online, which is good mother, good father energy, which is the whole essence of what I've woven into that method of relational authority is it's bringing good mother and good father energy, which allows the brain to rewire. While I'm doing that, just to give you people that like the science of it, what's happening when I'm doing that is I'm using my voice.

I'm bringing in the relational ingredients that we're missing and that is starting to fire new neural networks in my brain. And what's super, I love to nerd on on this, but what happens is there's fibers that drop down from the hippocampus and they start to create a new formation of how the brain is firing and wiring. Neurons that fire together, wire together. I imagine it is a lot of you have heard that term. This is neuroplasticity.

If we can reparent ourselves in the moment of our lived life when the distress is getting triggered, that's where the magic happens. That's where we grow ourselves up. And then what it does is it creates more capacity. It creates more presence. What I'm giving you all is the practical. This is practical. It is a thing that you can do that does create more of what you're wanting.

speaker-1 (29:09.75)
It's the thing that dissolves the stress. Instead of not wanting the stress and the, you know, the depression or all the things, this is actually giving you the what to do so that you can experience more of the thing that it'll give you. Relaxation, trust, freedom.

speaker-0 (29:29.224)
Wow. As you were talking, I mean, so many things just like came through my head and I love that you shared that walkthrough of what you can do to reparent in the moment and those things that each one of us can practice.

I think what's really challenging about today's culture and society is that we have this idea that we need to be healed before a relationship. We need to do things alone. We need to be independent. The list goes on and on and on. And I've even caught myself falling into said, this is what needs to happen before X, Y, and Z can unfold. there's a few things that you said that

that I've even challenged myself on, which is good because I've been in situations where I'm like, well, if I'm still showing up in these patterns and I'm not fully healed, then I need to work on this by myself. However, how can you work on something if you're not being met with resistance? And I've talked about this in previous episodes where like, you can't bicep curl air. You need someone who's going to hold a mirror to whatever that is. And if vulnerability is something you have a problem with,

If you're not met with someone who is actually bringing out that in you because of bonding, because of connection, because of intimacy or whatever, and you're not able to practice that or work that muscle, you can't grow that. You're gonna be stuck. Maybe it is in that adaptive child. Maybe you were in a relationship, I'll speak for myself. There was a relationship from my past where it was adaptive child versus adaptive child. And I say versus because it was constantly like,

We were not on the same team. We were constantly against each other and it was, it was exhausting. And now I, I've been removed from that for a long time now, but it's, it still comes up with my current partner where, you know, we'll be in a conversation and I'll feel that adaptive child just want to shoot out and like take control and like make a mess and run away. And, and in a way that

speaker-0 (31:50.658)
You know, I can see it happening, but it's taken my partner coming in and being like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, we're just gonna like take it back a notch, which I haven't ever, ever, ever been met with. And then when I met with that, it's like, But I had to get away from being afraid of the vulnerability, thinking I needed to heal on my own and like all the other things that I had sort of, maybe it was societal conditioning, but.

thought that I needed to do before the relationship could happen. The reality is I wouldn't be growing at this pace. I wouldn't be facing these fears and really working this muscle to transform, to change, to develop, to completely rewire my brain, as you were saying, to function as the wise adult if I didn't

give myself the life gym and step into that to really grow.

speaker-1 (32:59.188)
You're describing such a common experience for so many people where they buy into the belief, because there's people that speak this, of heal first. Heal first and then start the partnership. But what I'm hearing you describe is that you're in a partnership where you get to be in the practice of relationship. It is the expedited path for evolution and awakening. And when I talk about awakening, it can sound super woo-woo.

What I mean by awakening is reaching a higher level of maturity, higher level of health.

Dan Siegel in his work, describes health as this, our ability to integrate our already lived experience is the thing that determines our level of health. If we can't integrate our already lived experience that our body's keeping the score of, it remembers all the things. Prime example, if you almost get hit by a car, you get, let's say you get into a car accident.

almost guarantee that person's going to have a journey to unwind the remembering of that car accident. It's going to be a process. It's going to be, God, I'm never driving again. God. And there's going to be flashbacks. You're not choosing to do that. Your nervous system is trying to keep you safe. That's what our nervous systems are doing for us all the time. A lot of people have had relational car crashes.

speaker-0 (34:30.038)
Mmm.

speaker-1 (34:31.746)
and they're afraid to get back in the car.

speaker-0 (34:37.878)
Wow, this was a literal conversation I was having the last night.

speaker-1 (34:41.902)
interesting. Yeah. And so our work in that place and like when I first started, I just want to quickly share this because this is, you know, prime example. When I first started my coaching business, the thing that blew my business up is when I found this niche originally, which has changed over the years, but I originally started.

Helping women heal their relationship to the masculine by offering over presence so that they can heal the dynamics that their body's remembering from the car crash, which is dad, siblings, partners. It just keeps playing out and playing out and playing out.

And my business blew up and women were starting to have an experience of, you know, lot of them showed up of like, that's it, screw it, relationships not for me. I'm just, you know, whatever, like screw men, they suck.

speaker-0 (35:31.97)
Yeah, totally. Been there.

speaker-1 (35:33.858)
Yeah. But what they did is they got back in the car. Something landed in my messaging back then and they hopped on a discovery call and we started to work together and in the container of our work together, gave them a new experience. Then all of a sudden they were in the realization of, I actually like men. wait a minute. Now I know what I want from a man. I know what it feels like to have presence and care and reassurance. All those things that were missing that now happened created a bunch of integration.

Now if there's a new frequency that's being sent out, now there's a signal, you you can imagine as the hitchhiker saying like, hey, let me in your car. Like, I like want to go for a ride in an adventure and I have no idea where we're going to go, but I want to do that because I know it'll feel good.

So many people and then I look, there's a lot of women that have followed my content over the year. There's a lot of women that are stuck in the not getting in the car. I got to do more healing. I got to do more this or they'll like meet somebody, attract somebody and then something triggers them and they freak out. They're like, screw him. He has this and I just not for me and they don't even give it a chance.

because the adaptive child will drive the bus. If we don't know the adaptive child is showing up, we make it about them, we give our power away, and then we say, stunted in that part of our development, and then you're wasting years of your life in avoidance. And that's a hard pill to swallow, but I love and care about anyone who listening. So if that's you and that's just hit, feel it. Because the love that you're looking for is also looking for you, but you have to learn the relational ingredients

to be open to it, to receive it, to enjoy it. That can't be done in your bedroom, listening to podcasts and reading books on your own. That's actually preventing you from getting in the car. You have to get in the car, trust what life is bringing you as a partner, and then practice the boundary. Get really clear in yourself and decide, I am not going to say yes to any men that send me dick pics.

speaker-1 (37:42.58)
Or I'm not going to say yes to men that just don't create space for me to share what I'm feeling or deflect or defend. You have to do that practice regardless. There's no skipping it. There's no healing at all. So it won't have to be a thing you have to practice or learn. We have to learn that. Most people are not even aware that the thing they're afraid of is feeling their own heart.

Taking the risk of relationship. Relationship is risky. You could get hurt. There will be moments of being rejected, but it's our birthright to learn how to be, how to experience that place of relating and build tone.

how to learn this experience of to thrive in life, we need to learn how to be in the we space.

speaker-0 (38:40.744)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-1 (38:42.36)
They can't just keep doing it in the me space. You could waste so many years of your life working on you, you, you, you, you, you, but then what you're stuck in is the lowest level of relational consciousness.

speaker-0 (38:56.546)
I want to shift a little bit and get into consciousness. And you talk about three phases of consciousness. And I want you to walk me through those phases and not just what they are, but actually what it feels like to move through them.

speaker-1 (39:11.116)
Yeah, the three phases of relational consciousness. First one is me-consciousness. Second one is you-me-consciousness. And the third one is we-consciousness.

speaker-0 (39:22.818)
Hmm.

speaker-1 (39:25.122)
The first thing to understand about consciousness in general, you can't bypass it, you can't skip a step. If you do, it's going to hurt. Even if it's for a time, some people do this for a moment. A prime example is where people win the lottery. You could look at that as a bypassing and just hitting total financial abundance and not having to do the whole poverty thing.

And what happens with most people who win the lottery is they blow it all within the first year. doesn't matter how many millions of dollars it is because they don't have the tone and the developed capacity in their nervous system to hold that amount of energy. And so they will sabotage it. They will get rid of it. They'll just think it's never ending and they're invincible and they can just do whatever they want. And then they're usually off in a worse position than they even started because a lot of these people go to millions of dollars in debt.

because they do have so much and they're given more power and responsibility and then they end up worse off than when they first started. So I just wanted to use that example because we all need to go through that arc of relational consciousness and no one is worse off than the other. It's just a part of being a human being.

speaker-0 (40:27.331)
Hmm.

speaker-1 (40:42.03)
I know my personal preference is I want to skip some of the steps because I don't like the feeling of not being this alpha male super strong and capable able to take on the whole world. I don't like the part that's inadequate and insecure and weak actually, like where there are weaknesses. Not that I am weak, but where I have weaknesses, ah, I don't like that part. I like when I'm killing it and rocking it and things are going well, as I'm sure a lot of you can really relate to.

To really grow up into the full health and expression of what we're all here to figure out, our full potential, we have to go through this phase. So me consciousness, if we look at this back in its healthy right order, which is nature, we always have to follow healthy right order. The first stage is really getting to have an enjoyable experience of me. So that is a baby.

a little kid in those really young stages, it's all about me. Do you think a baby is considering what capacity their mom's at or what they have going on or how they're feeling? No. They spit up whenever they need to. They scream, they yell to make sure that the signal and siren goes off loud enough until the need gets met. And then it goes into early toddlerhood and we really get to feel it there. And it starts to shift from just me into a little bit of you me.

It's this whole dance of power, of like, give me this and I want that and I don't want to share. But then there's these sweet moments with toddlerhood where they want to share and they say the sweetest thing and they're like, mama, I love you or papa, I love you. And hey, I want to be together. That phase is the development of you, me consciousness, which is, hey, there's two of us here. Let's learn how to be different and be in the space together. And sometime over here for me.

And then sometimes we're going to go over here with you. So as in healthy parenting, this would be keeping the structure of the house going and sometimes really dropping down into a toddler's world as an example. This one's alive for me because I'm a four year old. And it's really stay present in his world and meet all the things that really make sense in his world. And then he really gets his cup filled. And then we go, okay, and now Papa's got to go to work.

speaker-1 (43:05.964)
And I love you so much and I can't wait till I get back and we're going to connect and it's going to be so great. What he's going to learn there, if I do that transition well, is he's going to develop a strong you-me consciousness. He has needs, I have needs, and we're going kind of make a, we're going to bargain for those needs. And then if we get enough of the experience of that, we evolve and grow up into we consciousness, which is this just

long-standing knowing that we are so much stronger together. I'm going to use bees as an example here. Bees have mastered we-consciousness.

speaker-0 (43:47.127)
Hi, man.

speaker-1 (43:48.424)
hive mind, it thrives if everyone's doing their right role to make that thing function and run and move. There's the protectors, there's the queen laying the eggs, there's the ones that transport bees and everyone's in harmony there. And it's the harmony that creates this vitality. It creates the sweetness, know, in Courtney and I's work, we call it the juiciness of relationship. And how perfect for this example, the sweetness we get from a honey,

or from the hive is the honey. And that sweetness is a byproduct of we consciousness moving through its process in the way that nature designed it. We are no different. If you look at the cultures and you study, if you were to have a video camera and watch the behaviors that are happening for a culture that are really happy and thriving, it doesn't mean just lots of money, but that they enjoy life and the experience of it. If we go and look what's happening,

They're all working together. There's things they're communicating that are not always verbal. They can really predict each other's next move and where needs are. And there will be an equal care of self and other knowing that that is in service to self.

The term that I use here is it's in our enlightened self-interest to learn how to do relationship well, because guess what? All those things that we want come from learning how to do the we space, because a person who is in love and in this satisfaction and pleasure of the relationship is more attractive and magnetic. It's been proven. Some of the top billionaires in the world, most of them are in a really strong partnership.

That's not a coincidence. It's attractive. There's a resource there. There's regulation in there. And then that creates opportunities. It creates creativity. There's so much that comes from being connected, being bonded to something because we are an interdependent species. And if we honor that part of our nature, everything just doesn't move better. That's why it feels good to be in coaching programs.

speaker-1 (46:02.872)
That's why it feels good to have a therapist or a friend that you can rely on is you, I'm sure listening can feel where that is true. Being at the dark night of the soul or having a shitty day, how good does it feel if somebody shoots you a text and says the thing that you just needed to hear and you don't know how they knew to say that thing? The feeling that feels so good receiving that connection is hitting what I'm sharing, that biological truth.

that we're meant to graduate into the we consciousness, but we still have to know how to dance the me and the you me.

speaker-0 (46:39.362)
Thank you for breaking those down. It's so fascinating because I think again, going back to that independence and that sort of like cultural, you need to like work on you first type idea. I've, know, the deeper I get into this relationship, I'll just share a little bit because I haven't. The more I'm like, wait a second, this person.

does make everything better. They are really showing up in the ways that, you know, if I'm having a tough day, it just, everything's easier. And

I've had fights with myself about that because I'm like, well, hold on, you're supposed to be independent and you're supposed to be able to do that for yourself. And like, now you're becoming dependent on this person. And like, is that codependency? And the narrative just starts going. But that's been like a huge, a huge like place that I've been stuck kind of, well, not stuck, but hung up on lately because I'm like, well, hold on. And it almost makes me want to like, not that I will, but

go backwards and be like, well, hold on. Like there needs to be some, when it's like, no, no, no. Cause everything you just said, that people are happier together, like things that are really working in tandem, you can feel it, you can see it. Like even just, you know, think of like a garden, there's the gardeners, there's the plant, like all of these people are tending to this, this whole entire ecosystem together. And it's a gorgeous garden. You see one person doing it. It's, there's going to be dead weeds over here and this thing needs to be like mowed and you know, it's like.

The more people, the more community, the more help, the more resources, the easier. And I don't know, you kind of just rewired my brain a little bit there and made everything that should make sense or kind of make more sense and kind of grounded that for me. So since you were able to do that for me, I'm sure there's listeners that are like, wow, yeah, like I can, I subscribe, I double click on that, like me too.

speaker-1 (48:47.008)
Yes. And I want to share there Jojo, because you're speaking to something so beautifully and your awareness is incredible. When you watch the part of yourself go into the questioning of being in that shared system. That's the you-me consciousness. That's what it will do in its healthy evolution and it growing up is it's going to check it out. Wait a minute. Am I codependent? Because it feels really good to be independent. And wait a minute.

When I wasn't independent and I was codependent, I got really hurt. And so that's a part of the, just to normalize it, that is the very essence and the nature of the vulnerability of being in that level of consciousness. You, me is a little bit scary because there is an opening and a trusting of other. And then what's going to get stirred up and provoked is all the parts that got hurt.

And so that's the risky thing, that's the vulnerable thing that most people want to avoid. They don't want to have to feel those parts. But that's what makes us human. That's what makes us beautiful. Our vulnerability isn't our weakness. Vulnerability is our deepest power.

But we have to build a healthy relationship to it. We have to be open to experiencing what it's like to be vulnerable. Every single human on the planet, I've learned this from all my mentors, they all say this. Every single human has a sensitive heart.

Even for the people that we could look at their behaviors and think, there's no way, they're a total psychopath. If you actually get to the root of what's creating those gnarly behaviors, it's the tenderness of their heart, where it was dropped really poorly, really badly, sometimes general relational, general relationally, and it's being handed down. Sometimes it's not even this lived life. It's just like the, Ooh, the soul is here to carry this torch forward and hopefully

speaker-1 (50:52.298)
improve it a little better than the last time round.

At the root of all of us were tender.

And so what I'm inviting in all of this space and what you're beautifully describing in the relationship that you're in, you're practicing the vulnerability. But then the juice that you get from it, and I'm sure you can attest to this, is there's moments you're being met in ways that you weren't met before and how good does that feel?

speaker-0 (51:19.286)
It's totally different. don't know. I've never experienced anything like it.

speaker-1 (51:23.604)
Yeah. And that's the terrain we want to be in because that's where we evolve. That's where we grow up. Think of any, look at any kid. What happens? know, parents, the biggest cliche thing, God, they grow up so fast. just, my God, now they're out of the house doing their own thing. And they took the risks. They followed their healthy evolution and it leads to new terrain that is unpredictable, uncertain and scary. The thing that feels the best for us is when we are honoring our process of evolution.

If we don't do that, then we feel depressed. Because we're stifling our actual nature and there's nothing wrong or bad about that, but it's helpful information that we can do something about it. Man, I need connection. Hanging out here and soaking in this soup of misery isn't really helping. I don't have the roadmap out of here. That's the moment where we need to reach out, seek out, pray for, whatever your process is.

God, please ask for a signal for a mentor or a guide or someone to show up so that you can be exposed to new ideals. That's the thing that creates transformation. Like you named earlier, my God, things are making more sense. Great. Now your brain's firing differently. Now your behaviors will be different. That leads to the new reality. And that happens through what we're both feeding and tending right now. It's the medium of the relationship itself.

speaker-0 (52:56.566)
I love that. Well, Mike, before I let you go, I want to get messy and ask you some questions from mentally, emotionally and spiritually perspectives. So first, mentally, what is one mental shift you see people transform the fastest? Like, what is a thought that might unlock everything else?

speaker-1 (53:19.97)
Yeah. The thing that I've noticed unlocks the most amount of energy and life energy and inspiration is this shift that vulnerability is not weakness. Vulnerability is a person's greatest power.

speaker-0 (53:38.392)
Thank you for re-saying that. think that's a very, very powerful concept and one that we need to really tap into because it will create great change in ourselves and in our entire lives. Emotionally, what emotion do you think people are most afraid to feel?

speaker-1 (54:02.85)
hands down shame.

Shame is sticky. It is the gnarliest, trickiest emotion out of all of them. It's contagious. People will do anything to get rid of it and pass it on. It's gnarly. It's the lowest level of consciousness and emotion. And it's scary, it's frightening, and what leads to people ending their lives and doing horrible, horrendous things. And so we will just do, of course, anything to not have to feel it.

speaker-0 (54:37.922)
Wow, yeah. And spiritually, do you see this work, everything that we were talking about today, as a spiritual practice? And what is something or a deeper thing that people can do or be called to do?

speaker-1 (55:02.722)
Yeah, great question.

I think just being human in a body is the spiritual practice.

speaker-0 (55:11.884)
Well.

speaker-1 (55:14.774)
Learning how to be in this car and know its owner's manual and to treat it well and do the maintenance on it in a way where the tangible result is like it's being enjoyed. That's the ultimate spiritual practice. And I learned this from one of my spiritual mentors. I can't even credit who it was because I can't remember, but they said this and it really landed for me and it changed my whole experience of life. And it was this true spirituality is going at the pace of the body.

speaker-1 (55:48.738)
The body's going to bring up all the things. We don't need to go digging and searching for it or trauma or healing, all the things. Just go into life. Life will poke and provoke the shit out of you. And then your work is to scoop those pokes up and all the mess that comes from it. And like, what do do with this? If you can't hold it yourself simply, go find someone to help you hold that mess. And that will lead to it integrating. And if you integrate it, you just, you ascend into enjoying life even more.

speaker-0 (56:18.786)
Wow, I really, really like that answer. That was a really good one. my gosh. Well, Mike, thank you so much for joining me on Inside Out and where can people find you?

speaker-1 (56:33.558)
Yeah, such a pleasure diving into this and for all of you listening, I've got a freebie for you if you want to experience more of this. If you're over there and this is really resonating, you know, the easiest thing is go down, click the link. I'm sure you'll add there Jojo and there's a freebie, which is the Masculine Feminine Polarity Cheat Sheet. You can print it, put it on the fridge. It helps understand the biological nature of what we all have inside.

this masculine feminine energy, shows you real practical qualities to start to make sense of which one is what and what does it need. You can print that off. Let that be a conversation starter with your partner. And then that also hops you into my email list. And then you'll see all the offerings, all the things and can join all the channels from there.

speaker-0 (57:20.724)
Amazing. And this will all be linked in the show notes. All right, Mike, thank you so much. And you guys know where to find me at underscore inside out dot podcast on Instagram. The sub stack is also linked in the show notes and you guys take a minute because this was a very big conversation. I'm sure there's someone out there that this episode made you think of. And the last thing you want to do is send this episode to that person. I want to challenge you to send it to them.

And that's all I have for you guys. Have a great week. I'll see you next time. Bye!