Grieving the Version of You That Didn't Make It with Lionel Moses

We talk a lot about grieving people we lose  but what about grieving the versions of ourselves that didn't make it? The dream that faded, the relationship that revealed you weren't showing up as yourself, the life you thought you were building that quietly fell apart?

In this episode, I sit down with Lionel Moses, Desert Storm veteran, twice divorced, business builder, and author of The Marriage Seed  and we get into the kind of grief nobody puts on the checklist. The grief of lost time. The grief of the people pleaser you became. The grief of the authentic version of you that was locked up while you performed for everyone else.

This one is going to land differently. We talk about:

• Why grief is a trajectory, not a state and where it's actually sending you
• How to grieve time instead of events
• What purposeful singleness really means (and why it's not just about being single)
• Why unaddressed grief is cancerous  and what happens when you finally face it
• The funeral you need to have for the version of you that didn't make it

If you've ever felt like the life you're living doesn't match the one you imagined this episode is for you.

🔗 Find Lionel at lionelmoses.com or themarraigeseed.com or Instagram 

Thank you for listening! Don't forget to follow along on social media @_insideout.podcast, rate and review. And Join the MESy Mailing List for exclusive content, insights on what is coming up and more! 

Transcript

speaker-0 (00:07.598)
Welcome to the Inside Out Podcast. I'm your host Jojo and this is where we will navigate the mess together. That is mental, emotional, and spiritual. Let's get messy.

speaker-0 (00:26.134)
Hi, everyone. Welcome back. Today I'm sitting across from a guy who's been divorced twice, ran numbers for Fortune 500 companies, built a business from scratch, and now teaches one of the most maybe counterintuitive things that you might have ever heard. That your relationships are the infrastructure to your life. And we we kind of know that, right? And but we're not just talking about romantic ones, we're talking about corporate culture, leadership, how you show up.

For yourself, which ideally is the most important thing. Today I have Lionel Moses. He wrote a book called The Marriage Seed. And before we talk about marrying anyone else, what we're going to be talking about is the person that you've been ghosting in the mirror. So we are going to learn all about how you can't just run away from your past, from your grief. You have to walk through it. So

Let's get into it. Lionel, welcome to Inside Out.

speaker-1 (01:25.985)
Giorgio, I'm glad to be here.

speaker-0 (01:28.576)
I'm really excited about this concept of grief because I think we are we're really good at grieving others and things that we we lose, but we we never really look at it in our in our in ourselves and like maybe there's versions of ourselves or dreams that we've had or ideas that we wanted to come to fruition or maybe even it's it's a relationship or a job or a dream of some sort, but we kind of

We kind of just go past it or cover it up or run instead of really dealing with it. And when we connected, I loved that you said that you really have to build through things and you can't just can't just, you know, start from from zero again. Like you you're not starting from zero. You're starting from something and I think your story's really interesting. And I'd I'd love to just hear

you know, your take on that and sort of, you know, what we touched on that the listeners didn't hear yet.

speaker-1 (02:31.96)
Well, I as I said in our conversation that most people when you suffer from anything, you try to run back to the beginning, but you know, there there's a new you that is in the place where you are today. You know, the circumstances and situation has caused you to want to look back, you know, that's kind of what we call grief. You know, it's a state we're trying to go back in. And actually I said something wrong. I just said it's a state.

And that's how most people see grief. They see it as a state or a place. What what grief actually is, is a trajectory. It sends us somewhere. And that's how most people get messed up. They see it as a state and they try to get out of it, but you know, it's actually a trajectory. It's something that's pushing you, your emotions, your feelings, and everything, whether it's a hurt, whether it's pain. And you know, honestly, there's even good grief. But until you acknowledge that it does exist, you know, you're you're not gonna be

be able to go anywhere, you're you're gonna be stuck because it's not a state. It's it is it's a trajectory. So it's gonna send you somewhere. It's gonna send you forward or it's gonna send you backwards. But brief is going to send you somewhere.

speaker-0 (03:41.592)
When you say grief, I think people automatically go towards loss of a loved one. I'm grieving. I'm grieving my mother. I'm grieving my fill in the blank. And we're we're not we're not talking about that, are we? We're talking about the versions or a life

speaker-1 (04:00.13)
B, exactly.

speaker-0 (04:03.352)
And I think that might be foreign, a foreign concept to a lot of people. It was it was kind of a foreign concept articulated to me. Like I think I've thought about it, you know, generally, but when you said it, that really dropped in. And I was like, wow, that's a really good point. Because we think we're going down a certain road. And this was the whole premise of Inside Out. We we want this life that is.

the the dream life in our heads, right? We grow up, we think like we're gonna, we're gonna go to this school, we're gonna follow this career, we're gonna get married, whatever, whatever we have painted in our head. And then that ultimately shifts and changes. And maybe we get stuck in a job that's not fulfilling or a relationship that isn't balanced or doing something that just we we never imagined and we're not happy in. And what we want internally isn't matching our external

And there's there's what you're saying to me, I hear it as that grief that that isn't there. The life that we thought we had or wanted or were gonna build isn't happening. So there's there's pain, yet we cover it up because we just keep going. We numb it with the weekend binges or the

You know, it's fine, or the the you know, just settling for less than what we truly desire. But I I I don't subscribe. I don't think that's good enough. And I I don't think the people that tune into this show and are listening to this conversation subscribe either. I think they're like, wait a second, no, I want to change that. I don't agree, I don't want that, and how do I get past that? So what is

And what are the tools to really walk through that grief, to look at that stuff and to maybe choose different or or otherwise.

speaker-1 (06:11.064)
Well, the the first thing we need to realize is what grief is. Grief is actually an emotion. And in order to address anything, the first thing you have to do is acknowledge it. So it's not necessarily a thing. Yet we project it onto a thing. And you know, the thing that we focus on and project it on, how we feel about that.

determines how the grief looks, feels, and what it does to us. But grief is actually something that takes place in our head and in our mind. Yeah, grief is real, you know, because it is a feeling, it's part of us, you know, it's it's real, but is I'll say more of a concept than it is an actual event. Is a feeling based on an event, but it's not an actual event. You know, so what we need to do is, you know,

Just be honest, okay. I'm I'm not where I want it to be at this age. I'm not with the person I want it to be, you know, but instead of grieving the event, I like to tell people, grieve the time.

Because the time you can't get back. Your loved ones, you can't replace loved ones, but you will have other loved ones that come into your life. But the time is what you need to grieve because that's what you're not going to get back. If you live longer, you dig yourself out of the grief hole, or you know, come down of the grief sky, you can find other relationships. You'll get another job. You know, certain some of these things you sort of have to do in order to survive and to live.

So the first thing we need to remember is okay, what we're grieving is we're grieving the time. And that's where your fresh start comes in. Your fresh it's like resetting a clock. It's not going back, but it's resetting the clock. Okay, from this point forward. I remember, you know, my kids used to run track. And, you know, my son, he ran relays. And although relay is a team effort, each runner's time was clocked.

speaker-0 (08:03.148)
Mm.

speaker-1 (08:26.552)
So the team, and that's how life is. Life is ca is like a team. You know, different set of events at the time. But the team's time is what wins the race. So I may have a bad leg here or a good leg there, but how does the team finish? It's the time that matters.

speaker-0 (08:44.46)
What does grieving time look like?

speaker-1 (08:49.442)
Grieving grieving times for me in my experience has been you know, as as someone that was divorced twice, there's a lot of great things that happened in my marriage, and there's some not so great things. because I was a people pleaser, that was my issue. I I had to own that. I was a people pleaser. There's a lot of things that I did with my time that I would not have done if you know I was.

If I was emotionally healthy. If I was emotionally healthy and not a people pleaser, the time that I spent pleasing someone else, I I could have, if if nothing else, JoJo, I could have used that time to present the real me to my partner. And and when you talk about grief, you talk about time, you're gonna have the same concept, a trajectory. If I presented the real me during that time, instead of grieving the time.

speaker-0 (09:34.07)
Mm.

speaker-1 (09:46.936)
the trajectory of the relationship could have shifted, could have changed. It didn't, but it could have. So what I'm doing is I'm grieving the time that I spent, you know, presenting my representative and not myself.

speaker-0 (10:02.69)
What you're saying it sounds like taking responsibility. And it feels like that's that's where like the real, real work begins. It's not just it's not just like in the next relationship the real work begins. It's in the mirror when you look at this is how I showed up. This is what I did. And I lost this time because I wasn't true to myself, because I showed up as a people pleaser, because I

adapted to whatever they I was a chameleon. I became what they needed me to be rather than who I am. And that's an interesting interesting idea because when we think of ourselves, we think of identity and how we show up. And half the time, I truly believe and which is really sad, that we really don't present our true selves. Bottom line.

speaker-1 (10:53.952)
Absolut absolutely not.

No, we're trying we're trying to win. What

speaker-0 (11:00.008)
We're trying to prove, we're trying to look a certain way. We're not just like authentic. And I I know for myself in so many past relationships, I tried to be something. I don't know what that was. Truly I don't. Probably whatever they whatever in my head I thought they needed me to be. Right. But that really didn't aid to a relationship actually lasting, something actually like building

Towards a bigger thing, it was it was more of a fleeting a fleeting moment, let's call it. And I think when you when you acknowledge that and you really take responsibility back to that big world responsibility, then it's it's wow, like that actually sits and feels different. Cause you're like, wait a second, this is about me. It's not about them. We love to blame other people. So

speaker-1 (11:55.763)
Yes, we do.

speaker-0 (11:58.818)
But we need to again stop with the with the U U U and turn back to me, me, me. This is my life. This is my choice. This is what I want. And would you would you say that the two divorces happened because you weren't true to yourself?

speaker-1 (12:20.714)
Absolutely. Yeah. With with first marriage again, we we grew apart simply because as as a Desert Storm veteran, I went into, you know, the Navy one way. after the war came out different. My whole thought processes, my whole mentality, my look in life was completely different. I married my high school sweetheart. So, you know, I was a teenager, graduated high school. two years later, I was

in in the military with married with children is completely different and yeah it's c completely different and my mindset shifted so much when I was in the military because actually not only did I go in the chow I went in the chow had children and you know my my wife at the time was expecting during the war so my head was all over the place and something you said you know it's very important that

you know, your listeners here is that we have to take responsibilities for our actions. You can't change anyone else. The only person that we're responsible for in this life is us. It's the only one. So for me, when I think of grieving and I think of, you know, the responsible party, I turn I turn that funeral that I have for my grief towards the per the version of me that I failed to present.

Because that's the person that caused the problem. That version of me that wasn't strong enough to lead. That version of me that wasn't strong enough or courageous enough to say, hey, I don't like that. And and usually it's not it's nothing complex. It's just, you know, our perception of ourself. And it's our growth that you okay, that old me. No, you you can't come this time.

speaker-0 (14:03.5)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (14:14.41)
Yeah. I like what you said about having a funeral for your for your like for yourself and for like that version of you that didn't show up or whatever it is. I think that's I think just mentally it's really it really puts it into perspective of what you're talking about. You work with with people, whether that's in relationships, but y you're coaching individuals and

What do you notice that happens when people actually don't grieve the version of themselves, when they keep pushing into the next thing, the next job, the that that fresh start kind of idea? What happens if they don't actually take accountability and responsibility and look at like, well, hold on, like I showed up in this way.

speaker-1 (14:59.874)
Yes. So grief is like a cancer. If you don't put it in its place or treat it properly, it's going to take over. And you know, one thing I noticed more than anything, when people don't take responsibility, they end up imploding emotionally and and actually even physically. Because anytime you have a mental health problem, it doesn't just affect your head. It it affects, you know, you physically as well.

speaker-0 (15:17.142)
Mm.

speaker-1 (15:30.102)
So, you know, you're you you actually kill yourself when you don't address yourself properly because I'm a firm believer that we're created to be someone and to do some things. And operating in denial, that that makes you an for me an untrustworthy person. Because if you're not strong enough to be honest with yourself, who are you gonna be totally honest with? I'm not sure I can trust someone that doesn't trust themselves. Because they don't trust themselves. Why should I?

You know, so what I know is when I'm coaching and I'm talking to people, no matter how bad their life is, and whether there's a visual change, you know, that you can measure, a tangible change, or not, once they start owning their grief and owning their position and owning where they are, they start walking with their head held higher.

Because there's an inner peace that comes with them. That the grief is gone.

speaker-0 (16:27.618)
Mm-hmm.

I think it's a lot of self acceptance. And once you really just own who you are, regardless of what society, maybe your parents, your family, your spouse, your siblings, whomever is gonna have a strong opinion of you, you it's almost like hear me out. It's almost like you let a version of you die that was so hung up on what everyone thought about you.

what society wanted from you, what the the social medias and the inner whatever, whatever it is. But like that has that skin almost has to shed for the true version of you to come to fruition so that you can actually live in alignment. And then everyone's gonna have something to say about it. But are you strong enough to hold your identity? And also maybe there's grief in like grieving a version of you that your mom wanted you to be or your dad or I mean we we

Can go down so many routes here, but I think ownership and identity and letting go of what everyone else wants is such a massive part of this because you might be letting people down, but who is number one? Who is the person that you have to live with for the rest of your life? And who are you actually going to be grieving on your deathbed?

The version of you that should have done this and that and the third, like, how many people are on their deathbed and are like, I wish I did this? I should have done that. I wi do you wanna be that?

speaker-1 (18:07.98)
The most important per you said the most I said the most important person is us. And on your deathbed, you're not going to be looking at other people as much as you're looking at yourself and what you could have, should've you know the old saying shoulda, coulda, would have, you know, is it's not necessarily anyone else, it's is me. And we look a lot of people look at grief from like a act I'll say like an academic standpoint, whereas, you know, and and life.

From an academic standpoint, where okay, we look at you know certain theories that we hear things should be, which is why, you know, I I project what I believe my partner wants into my life and do these quote unquote steps per se to accomplish that and get them to love me the way I want to be loved. But our our mind, our our body, our true self is waging that against.

all of our past experiences. I'm I'm not a scientist or anything, but I do know a little bit about how the brain works. And you know, our our brains are already programmed, you know, I'm I'm to do what we've done in the past. And it's trying to safeguard us by holding us in different positions. But sometimes we gotta break out of that. And until we you know reveal our true self, you're you're you're

speaker-0 (19:07.96)
Mm.

speaker-1 (19:34.828)
you're not going to become everything you need to you need and could and should be, in my opinion. You know, one of the things that the analogy I talk about in the in the book a lot is is soil and soil preparation. No one wants to deal with the soil. You want grass to grow, you want trees to grow, you want flowers. Most people don't care about their dirt.

And and and and that's where the grief comes from because the dirt doesn't have the nutrients, it doesn't have the micronutrients, it don't have you know the enzymes in it that it needs for anything to truly glow growth and flourish from it. And it and and and that that soil, that's the self-work. It's the stuff that's inside of us that actually reeks out and projects what comes from us. So while we're you know heading, you know.

nutrients and you know vitamins over to our partners that they may need, we can't grow what we were designed to grow. We become a desert. And that's where the pain comes. Because, you know, dirt is a combination of like soil and sand. The soil have the nutrients, the sand is pretty much it nothing can grow in it. So that's why after you know we have a relationship or friendship, a job or

speaker-0 (20:50.306)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (20:56.152)
Whatever that that leaves us, we're depleted because they took the soil and left us with the sand. And nothing grows the sand.

speaker-0 (21:04.952)
Tell me more about this book, The Marriage Seed.

speaker-1 (21:09.218)
The the marriage seed, I I love to start off by telling people that the title of the book is deceptive. Because I've had people say, Well, I don't want to get married, so I'll never read it. But that's the title that came to me when I was writing. So that's the title that I use. But when I say marriage, I'm thinking of a commitment, a lifelong commitment. And I believe that the word seed comes from the simple fact that I believe everything that you need.

To be all that you are created to be is inside of you. As we're talking about the grief and all this proper grieving, and you know, you have to pull it out. So once you pull out and and provide and not just pull it out, but treat what's there so it can grow. Yeah, I'm not a farmer or anything, but I I in the book I have a a shallow brag, so I'm gonna do it here if you don't mind. I have a really great lawn.

And one thing I know is when I overseed, every seed that I plant is not going to grow. It's they're not. So, you know, while I have the title is in a singular form, knowing that every seed is not going to grow. Let's I you when you look at life, you want to look at it from a vantage point that I'm gonna do everything within my power to make this thing blossom, make it bloom.

If it needs sunlight, I'm gonna give it sunlight. If it needs water, I'm gonna give it soil. If it needs dung, I'm gonna put dung on it. You know, you you have to fertilize stuff. And I don't know any fertilizer, JoJo, that smells good.

And we need that in life. So when you make any type of lifelong commitment, you're gonna have to prepare yourself to be exposed to the elements like any seed. It's gotta be watered, it's gotta be nourished, and it's gonna take time.

speaker-0 (23:10.336)
It's interesting that you bring that up because I'm gonna do a subtle plug for this podcast. Please do. My first ever episode is called Roots Before Romance. And it's planting that seed. It's putting the things grow in the dark. It's being intentional. It's that you said if you give a bunch of seeds to your lawn like only if you were gonna like take. But it's planting the seed, it's giving it what it needs, the light, the space, the

There's so many references that th that you just said that if we don't treat ourselves, our relationships, our our worlds internally and externally, with that caution, that care and that intention, we we're we're gonna be like overdoing it one way or another. Nothing is gonna grow, nothing's gonna be built right. If you just are like snap your fingers and it's like it's like picking a flower or growing a flower.

What's the instant gratification and what's the nurture time energy? And and I think from what you're saying about this book, which I love, and yes, I I see why you say that the title's kind of a little bit deceiving, if may maybe not deceiving, but miss you kind of like you don't really know what you're you're getting into, which is kind of fun. It's a journey, as is life.

speaker-1 (24:37.07)
Absolutely.

speaker-0 (24:37.932)
But you you have to have that almost like that seed, that that initial seed is you, is the relationship with yourself first before you can even dare dare I say dare to build, to grow, to include others in your life, to to to build something, whether whether that is before you have to grieve it later.

Or post grief.

speaker-1 (25:09.784)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I I love that. If you go to the floors, you'll see something that most people don't want to do with their life, and that's pruning it. So the flowers that you see in that big, beautiful bouquet, it's been pruned to look the way it does. In other words, it did not come into its full potential naturally. It had assistance. It was pruned. So that that rose that you spoke of.

speaker-0 (25:20.086)
Mm.

speaker-1 (25:40.0)
It's beautiful. But those donors hurt.

speaker-0 (25:43.512)
I wanna ground this in because I think for our friend in the room and our listeners, they they're probably like, Okay, this is a great like concept and idea and like grief and cool, great, fine, but like what is the practicality? So I wanna break this open a little bit, just from like a personal aside. I'm in the process of moving. And when I'm recording this episode, I'm actually moving next week. So whether this comes out on time or when I'm moving or not is is another story. But

There are versions of myself that I have really been kind of going back through. Like I moved to New York City when I was 19. So you guys do the math. But there are so many different versions of me that have been here and kind of going through those motions and the careers that I the paths that I went down with jobs and career stuff or

The relationships that I got into or the friendships that I have or that I don't have anymore have really been coming up for me. And it's like I'm grieving this version of myself because I can't take this to my next level. I can't just hang on with a death grip of, well, I had all these things and now I need to grow and elevate.

Do you how much weight you'd have on your back if you took everything with you always? You have to shed. You have to grow. A a snake grows by shedding its skin and has another one because he's growing and becoming bigger. And like, that's the same kind of concept. And yes, you have to realize that there is a lot that comes through that of like, okay, old versions of myself, old relationships that don't serve me anymore, you're not always gonna have

those people, those like maybe they're partners, maybe they're best friends that you used to have, like sometimes it's necessary for your evolution to let that go.

speaker-1 (27:50.74)
Absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why I used the term funeral earlier in the shows because you it is a designated point of closure.

When once you have a funeral for something, you don't expect it to come back. What you have and what you appreciate are the memories. And then it's a matter of programming our mind to bring up the proper memories and not the other ones. But typically for me, you know, I'm I'm you know, as as we're recording this, I I learned actually last night that my brother in law passed away. So yeah, thank you.

speaker-0 (28:29.206)
No, I'm so sorry.

speaker-1 (28:32.024)
But the but grief is real. And you know, almost all night, you know, I I have five siblings and each one of us talking and just remembering different things. The reality hasn't set in yet that he's gone because he's still he's a young man. But the reality hasn't set in, but it's something that we ha y we have to start processing. And you know, there's in processing

You know, of the the new information, as you say, was your transition, the excitement and the joy that comes with it. And what would grieve what what you grieve more so than anything for me, I just think what I grieved more so than anything when I transition was stability.

speaker-0 (29:17.15)
Mm.

speaker-1 (29:18.412)
What what I know worse. Yes. Yes. You know, but as you said with the snake, you can't grow until you shed some things. You know, so I I think that's very important that everyone know who's listening grasp that concept that you're you're not you're not losing your old self because your old self already lit. You're making room for a new self.

speaker-0 (29:43.062)
Mm.

speaker-1 (29:46.69)
So for me, I tried to keep my Greece going yo, going out and then coming in. It's a beautiful thing. Because the old self can't handle can't deal with this. You can't go wherever you transition to as if you're in New York.

Because the culture's different

speaker-0 (30:06.498)
I think a lot of people, and thank you for sharing that about what you're what you're grieving right now that's deeply personal and very difficult. So I'm really sorry for your loss. And and loss is real. And it doesn't come back. And having that funeral, that finality, that letting go and that acknowledgement.

Is is so important. It's that closure. It's that chapter ending, whether it's a person or a or in my case, a a a life transition, you know? But if we if we don't, if we just jump to the next thing without acknowledging where we've been, we're at risk of and please jump in here. But repeating patterns or becoming the people pleaser again in the next relationship or doing the things that we've always done that actually don't

Serve us the long term.

speaker-1 (31:09.726)
I I I love what you said that you know you end up bringing the things with you if you don't grieve it now. The first thing that came to my mind when you're talking is you know just reverting back to what we know about grief is cancerous. And if we unaddress grief, it will come back and haunt you. Jojo, I'm telling you from life experience, I've I've had things that I was forced to put to death.

Because I ignore it said, it'll go away on its own, but it's not. It did t I should say, it doesn't always go away. I'm not saying never, but it doesn't always go away on its own. And if you want to make sure for me, like that people please that I had my other relationships don't pop up again, you know, one thing that I did, and that's something I talk about in the book again, is you know, I have a chapter called Purposeful Singleness. And for some reason, you know, that's the most popular chapter in the book.

But I I intentionally do not bring that imposter on a date with me. I'm too old. No, not at all. Because if I have to make concessions of who I am now, I will be the lino that was in the two marriages. And the lino that I buried from my two marriages, Jojo, are you ready for this? I don't know who he was. Because he was different in both places.

speaker-0 (32:17.129)
Mm. Not invited.

speaker-1 (32:39.412)
And while he while I was living though the Lionel, both those relationships, the true Lionel was the one grieving because the true Lionel was locked up and unable to come out.

So I I was living a great life, JoJo, according to everyone's standards. But I was grieving the fact that I'm Lionel, the real me, the authentic Lionel, was hell captive.

But now I refuse to box him again. You have you have to love all of me. Or not.

speaker-0 (33:14.52)
Absolutely. Right. But no one can really make that choice unless they truly see you. And if you don't let anyone in, then you're repeating that pattern again. And that's where the vicious cycle continues. I I also think time, that purposeful singleness is so like and it this can be just purposeful space. It doesn't have to be about being single if you're in a real this is just space between

Something that you're transitioning from to the other. It does okay. So maybe it's romantic relationships, maybe it's not. But for for the purpose of what you wrote, that that purposeful singleness, if you're constantly back to back to back with relationships, you're just gonna unintentionally be repeating the same patterns because your nervous system is wired that way. If you take that space, whether that's I mean anything, but let's again, relationships. You can unlearn.

certain things. Yes, you're gonna be met with it later, but at least you're gonna recognize it quicker because you acknowledged and took responsibility. Wow, those words coming back. For like the the stuff, the crap that you that you did. And we don't like to take responsibility. We want everything to just like, you know

It's their fault and it's not mine. And I'm we don't want to say sorry. Like I that's the little kid version of us, right? But again, it's not easy to like acknowledge when you're wrong, when you've messed up and to say you're sorry. We know we don't like to do it. Some of us are very good at it, others are not. But when we do and we actually are like, that is on me. That is my fault. You have a completely different reality growing from that veer off, from that change, from that literal shift that you just made.

Because you saw it clearly, because you took that pause, because you took that space, because you grieved, because you allowed yourself that in-between, that uncomfortability, rather than just, nope, I wanna get comfy. Nope, I wanna stay. No, I wanna just have everything in my little what are they called? I'm losing it. Creature comforts. No.

speaker-0 (35:34.572)
You got if you want the life, if you want the relationship, if you want the difference, what does that take? It takes drastic measure, it takes drastic change, it takes grief, it takes funerals, it takes all the things so that you can look at yourself in the mirror, that you can stop ghosting yourself, the true, true version of yourself, and be like, Yep, that's her. Yep, that's him, yep, that's me.

So Lionel, before I let you go, let's get messy mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. What would you say is the main story that we as a society or individually tell ourselves about who we are?

That actually is a version that we might need to grieve.

speaker-1 (36:27.83)
I I believe that most people tell themselves the story about who they are based on what they've heard instead of what they tell themselves. I should say that's that's that's my story and the story of most of the people I've worked with and you know, yeah.

speaker-0 (36:48.194)
Like they're dictating. Rather than, yeah. my God, that's so true. I totally relate to that. Where it's like, wait a second, is this your opinion or is this mine? Is this my I Mm. That's a really good one. Emotionally. What feelings this can be this can be about you, or this can be about general like society. What do you think is like the toughest feeling that people are afraid to sit with? And

speaker-1 (36:58.85)
Exactly.

speaker-0 (37:18.028)
when they actually do what's actually waiting on the other side of for them.

speaker-1 (37:24.334)
That's that's a really good question. I think the toughest feeling for people to sit with, I'm I'm gonna say is fear. And the reason why fear is the toughest why the reason why I feel fear is the toughest feeling to sit with is because you don't know what's on the other side.

It's the it's the unknown. In in our nature and in our culture, you know, we're expected to have such regimented lies is gonna produce a certain result. And when s you don't know or you're unaware of how things are gonna show up, the the unknown and

It it scares us. It that the is it that that fear because we're we're we're expected to respond quickly and immediately. Totally. And with fear, you don't know how to you don't know what you have to address, so you can't plan to address it. So now I'm scared because I don't know what's gonna happen or how to address it. But what I find on the other side is an old the use of fear as the old acronym that I've heard many years ago.

is like false evidence appearing real.

speaker-0 (38:50.998)
Hell yeah, I love that.

speaker-1 (38:52.798)
What what's on the other side of fear is you're wrong. In many cases, you are wrong.

speaker-0 (39:02.55)
Yeah, we have nothing to be scared of.

Yeah. Yeah. Or it's better than you could have ever imagined. And you were like, why did I just make myself crazy? And like made my worked myself into a tizzy. Yeah, I think culture and control is like such a is such a big part of it. And like we think about like the five year plan, the ten year plan. And it's like, well, hold on. You actually have no idea. Because if I looked back on what my five year plan was, bro, I'm so far away from that. It's ridiculous. We think

speaker-1 (39:34.424)
Most

speaker-0 (39:35.714)
We think we have an idea of what we want, and then we're so regimented that we wake up one day and we're like, I don't want this. Why did I just try so hard for this? Because we're scared. Because we're not okay with the unknown. That was such a good one. Spiritually. Spiritually, we have a relationship with ourselves. And I don't think enough of us look at that where we are.

speaker-1 (39:59.726)
Yeah.

speaker-0 (40:05.706)
in relationship with ourselves right now. But if you were to ask that question, and Lionel, please, you can you can answer this for you, and I'll answer this too. But what does it need from you right now? What does your what do you truly need from you?

speaker-1 (40:27.596)
What I need for me right now is something I said in the earlier in the show. I need the authentic meat to show up.

speaker-0 (40:35.958)
Yeah.

speaker-1 (40:37.41)
Because if the authentic me doesn't show up, the all other as no other aspect of my life is is going to be right. And I I'm a firm believer, you know, that we're actually spiritual beings carrying a body.

speaker-0 (40:54.329)
a hundred percent.

speaker-1 (40:55.468)
You know, so you know, I have this body that's acting a certain way, you know, but if I don't present my authentic self, then I'm I'm limiting my possibilities. Because the spiritual me is designed to accomplish certain things and to not do certain things as well that I will never be able to achieve, you know, as much as I want to do.

if I don't bring my authentic self to the table. And the older I get, the more that becomes a reality. That okay, I'm I'm not here and I'm miserable. I'm here, you know, I'm I have, you know, a lot of friends and I'm happy. Or I'm here, I'm by myself and I'm still I'm I'm I'm still happy.

You know, so at the end of the day, you know, I was I think it was Shakespeare, To thine own self be true.

speaker-0 (42:00.398)
Mm-hmm. Sure was.

speaker-1 (42:02.274)
my that's my spiritual summation right there you know just be be true to who you are and and listen you know to the carrier of your spiritual being which is your body you get gut feelings you know your stomach bothers you your ears start twitching whatever whatever your thing is and for me it's like I just I I I I tend to get like twitches not necessarily gut feelings but I I get a twitch in my eye or starts jumping

when you know I feel uncomfortable.

And when I listen to that, you know, not necessarily knowing exactly what I need to do at the moment, but I know what I don't, what I should not do. And and I think, you know, for me, you know, I've been conditioned all my life to know what my next move is, that sometimes I have to sit and not know my next move and be okay with it.

speaker-0 (42:45.27)
Mm.

speaker-0 (43:01.902)
Trust.

speaker-1 (43:04.066)
Yes. It's amazing. You have to trust yourself and it requires effort. Yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0 (43:09.55)
Totally. I really like what you said about the like the unknown and y your body and that gut feeling. You can literally ask yourself for signs and signals in your body to show up if something isn't right for you. I remember a few years ago telling myself, I wanna feel sick immediately when people aren't good for me, when food isn't good for me, when whatever it was.

wasn't good for me. The wrong like if I was in a situation and I was like if I started to feel just sick to my stomach, I knew something was off. And if and I started asking myself for those cues. And I think because we are spiritual beings in a body, we can tap into that higher level consciousness and literally get answers. But you just have to be open enough to absolutely listen.

speaker-1 (44:05.802)
Absolutely. Yeah, our our our ears listen to outer voices more than inner. And that's yeah, I I I I Jojo, I do the same thing. I ask for warnings and signs and stuff to to to help guide all the time.

speaker-0 (44:12.237)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (44:23.827)
I love that. Yeah. It's so important.

speaker-1 (44:27.192)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (44:28.886)
Well, Lionel, this was such an eye opening conversation and just a grounding conversation. Cause I don't think we look at healing or at grief and like this part of healing is like something like on the checklist of life that we need to do, but we really do. And if we don't, then we're just doing ourselves such a disservice. So again, thank you for joining me and where can people find you?

speaker-1 (44:52.462)
The best way to find me is on lionellmoses.com or the marriage seed dot com. I'm on all social medias, either Lionel Moses or the Marriage Seed.

speaker-0 (45:04.716)
I love that. Well, you guys, this will all be linked in the show notes, and you know where to find me at underscore insideout.podcast. Sign up for the Substack, the mailing list, all the things. And if this resonated with you, or if it didn't, if it was just something that maybe you think someone else needs to hear, please send it to them. Does the show wonders, and it's a big help to getting the show out there. As per usual, have a great week, guys, and I'll see you next Wednesday. Bye.